Prisons hold dangerous people many of whom are mentally unstable. The American experience has been pretty clear that "super prisons" don't succeed in rehabilitating convicts. They tend to make them worse. That's because they aggregate the worst of the worst and allow them to (functionally) take control.
We need prisons that will separate convicts and, if possible, rehabilitate them. If they can't be rehabilitated they must at least be taken out of society. That means smaller prisons with greater controls -- not larger with less.
Tory plans for U.S.-style prisons slammed in report
The Conservative government plans to bring in an American-style prison system that will cost billions of taxpayer dollars and do little to improve public safety, according to a report to be released Thursday in Ottawa.
The 235-page report, A Flawed Compass, is a scathing review of the government's plan, which it calls "immoral, unethical and illegal."
University of British Columbia law professor Michael Jackson and Graham Stewart, who recently retired after decades as head of the John Howard Society of Canada, prepared the report.
A panel led by Rob Sampson, a former corrections minister in Ontario's Mike Harris government, drafted the government plan, which is being implemented by the Correctional Service.
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By stressing punishment rather than rehabilitation, the plan ignores lessons of the past, which led to the prison riots and killings that dominated Canadian news in the early 1970s, said Jackson.
"My greatest fear is with this road map's agenda and its underlying philosophy, we will enter a new period of turmoil and violence in Canadian prisons," he said.
"I do fear that prisons will become more abusive, prisoners will become more frustrated and that we could go back to a time not only when the rule of law was absent but a culture of violence is the dominant way in which prisoners express their frustrations."
The plan attempts to emulate the American "get tough" system, which incarcerated hundreds of thousands of people and has left some states on the verge of bankruptcy, said Stewart.
He called the plan "an ideological rant. All their recommendations are just that they believe in something.… There's no evidence for anything they recommend, there's no research, no background."
The federal road map flies in the face of the Correctional Service's own research of what works to rehabilitate prisoners and ensure community safety, said Stewart.
"The fact is that you cannot hurt a person and make them into a good citizen at the same time."
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James Morton
1100-5255 Yonge Street
Toronto, Ontario
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416 225 2777
I too fail to see the logic in putting more convicts in the same place. It is no secret that prisons are like crime schools for most but more smaller prisons will be much more expensive to build and run and I don't think that that is a good investment considering that well over 90% of convicts will never be rehabilitated and become productive members of society. That said we do need a revamp of this entire system just not the failed American one.
ReplyDeleteIs the problem with big prisons or just prisons in general? Because everything I hear from Liberals would make me think it is the latter. Face facts, please, our prisons are full, we haven't built a new men's prison in years if not decades, and whether we like it or not if someone commits a crime worthy of prison we should have a space for that.
ReplyDeleteWe do the same thing with medical care in that we ration it, we don't fund it on a per-patient basis. In BC the government has decreed how many MRIs will be done this year but any rational person knows that you can't decide before the fact how many people will get sick. The same thing has happened with years of Liberal and Progressive Conservative penal policy, the assumption was that "enlightened" policy would reduce the prison population therefore no need for new prisons. That hasn't worked out and now we have an overcrowding crisis. The Liberals are saying the solution is just to not sentence people to jail??? Soft on crime or soft in the head. Take your choice.
It's a mistake to think the Conservatives are reacting to any real or existing problem in the criminal justice system. They aren't. They are acting according to their ideology.
ReplyDeleteConservative ideology tells them to be tough on crime, so they're being tough on crime. That's it.
It has nothing to do with what is best for Canada, or how to rehabilitate criminals. This is about ideology.
It's no different than their foreign policy. Which aims mainly to be emotionally satisfying.
They are very selective on what crime they are tough on. With violent crime declining, they still focus on that. With white collar crime like fraud increasing they do what?
ReplyDeleteIt's really all about spending billions of our money chasing populist votes. And between the deficit spending, the ill-conceived cuts to the GST and corporate tax, that money is very much going to be spent instead of something like, oh say, health care or education.
As California's tough-on-crime mantra took hold with a corresponding increase in related budgets, the education budgets there nosedived.
That's because the Conservative Party of Canada is made of ideological zealots.
ReplyDeleteUmmm, question to all you Liberals spouting about Conservative ideology:
ReplyDelete1) Are Canadian prisons overcrowded RIGHT NOW?
2) And if so, is that a direct result of a Conservative government in power for less than 4 years?
I ask because there appears to be a need for more prison space regardless of the outcomes of future ideological meddling. Were prisons roomy before Harper beat Martin or were previous governments playing the ideology game by not building prison space?
Call me neo-con if you like but it seems liberal ideology has put our prison system in a crisis. Other than letting criminals out early, do you have a solution?
wsam, just because they act in their ideology does not mean it's bad for Canada. The sad truth is we need more prisons because as the population grows there will be more criminals. And we need much stiffer sentences for a wide range of crimes because I for one am sick of the rights of convicted criminals trumping those of the victims.
ReplyDeleteOooo, here's some links!
ReplyDeleteEven John Howard society thinks prisons are too crowded
Thise one discusses the causes of overcrowding but fails to mention not enough prison space. Isn't that ideological blindness?
Hell's Angels in prison - lets just release them, right?
Pay attention. It's not that they're building more prisons, it's the kind of prisons they're building.
ReplyDeleteThat, plus things like getting rid of gradual release.
Violent crime is down. For example. So this policy is not responding to an actual problem in the Canadian criminal justice system, it's repsonding to Conservative ideological preferences.
The point of prison isn't to make a bunch of middle aged guys who are "sick of the rights of convicted criminals trumping those of the victims," feel better.
The point of the modern prism system is to remove hardcore criminals from society and give anyone with potential a chance at rehabilitation. I'm not saying the Liberals were prefect. Or that all Liberal ideas are great.
But the Conservatives seem to harbour this weird nostalgia for the days of public floggings. Days, they forget, or don't care, when crime rates were higher.
This is what I mean about the petty emotionalism which seems to inform Conservative policy.
What is the Liberal ideology? Pragmaticism?
Sorry WSAM, that's a load of crap and if you were even remotely self-aware you'd know it. Liberals have been spewing against ANY new prisons for decades. Super prison or not, it's a fig leaf for your ideological rant. The facts are that we need new prisons. They were too crowded under Mulroney, Chretien, Martin, and Harper. This isn't a new problem and it has nothing to do with early release or sentencing - unless you are willing to admit that the Liberals are at least equally culpable in that problem.
ReplyDeleteAs for the rest of your spew about middle aged white guys, well, that just shows what kind of bigotries are acceptable in Liberal-land. Still, what this middle-aged white guy is nostalgic for are the days when who thief who broke into my house didn't get released the next day to do it again. Sure, he's just a thief and not a violent criminal, but I am just not nearly as forgiving as you Liberals. But that's why you guys have the prisoner vote cornered and we have the suburbs.
"Liberals have been spewing against ANY new prisons for decades."
ReplyDeleteDoubtful. Against prisons in general, or against increased government spending? Martin and Chretien did have a large deficiet to contend with.
Anyway. Prove it.
My car was recently broken into. Window smashed. $800 in damage. Nothing stolen.
This has been happening all over my downtown neighbourhood.
Emotionally I'd like whoever is doing this punished hard.
Intellectually I'd like there to be less crime. And I'd like to think my government is working toward that goal. But they're clearly not.
What they're doing is ideological button pushing.
Obviously you've decided otherwise. Probably because being "tough on crime" satisfies you emotionally. Congrats. You're the Conservative's target audience and it worked. You have been successfully sold.
Your so lost in arguing agaisnt anything conservative wsam that your forgeting the main point os sentences, they are not there to be rehabilitated they are there for punishment. Just because violent crime is down does not mean we do not need harsher sentences. I don't know how many times I read stories about violent criminals being back on the streets before thier victims are out of the hospital and that as a society we should all feel ashamed about. ps I am not middle aged I'm 28
ReplyDeleteUsing prisons as punishment will never reduce crime. Ever.
ReplyDeletePrison should never be about reducing crime they are about PUNISHMENT point blank period
ReplyDeleteSo, Austin, I take it you agree Conservative policy on this issue isn't attempting to solve specific problems within the criminal justice system.
ReplyDeleteIt's about pushing ideological buttons. It's better to be percieved as "tough on crime" then, say, promote policies which might reduce crime.
You write like someone much younger than 28.
wsam you write like someone who has a problem with someone being held accountable for thier actions. If you want to talk about reducing crime thats fine but understand there is not getting rid of crime it will always be there. But tell me does it not anger you to see career criminals being released way before they should. Were you not angry when Karla Homolka was released?
ReplyDeleteand thanks for the insult thats usually the first sign I'm winning this debate
ReplyDeleteSo basically... it's alright for a hundred women to get raped and murdered as long as the criminal goes to jail afterwards?
ReplyDeletewhat are you talking about brent? are you always as dramatic as soap opera?
ReplyDeletesomeone who rapes and murders a hundred women is never going to be rehabilitaed so should we just not send them to prison?
ReplyDelete"I don't know how many times I read stories about violent criminals being back on the streets"
ReplyDeleteIs MSM where 21 of 22 newspapers endorsed CPC (Torstar got a stranded Canadian out of Kenya not until traumatized maybe permanently). I've read the Wpg Sun cheerlead vigilantiism against societally benficial drug dealers and then lament later severe beatings. All you rich Canadians have no problem raping and beating poor (except for kingpins and good thiefs) prisoners, you don't realize you rich people are the reason there is excess violence in and out of prison. Prairie voters and rural Canadians are the enemy of bringing down incarceration costs and violence (in and out of custody) by wrongly assuming everyone in custody picks sober fights with strangers day-to-day on the outside.
By attacking both repeat violent offenders and everyone else incarcerated you are making repeat violence everywhere worse. That prison money is money away from mental health shelters + treatment, low income housing, jobs, and urban community centres.
I feel like shit knowing the rapes and beatings I'm a part of as a Canadian citizen.
"Sure, he's just a thief and not a violent criminal, but I am just not nearly as forgiving as you Liberals."
Neither am I you are a CPC supporter aiding and abetting rape. If there is a god you might go to hell for this; are unrepentant. I've been robbed mildly beating and imprisoned for your CPC prohibition policy so go fuck yourself or get fucked in prison; lucky not to be arrested and maybe lose your job if boss is thinks like you.
"1) Are Canadian prisons overcrowded RIGHT NOW?
2) And if so, is that a direct result of a Conservative government in power for less than 4 years?"
Yes. Decriminalize and pay retributions. In Winnipeg they just made police write parking ticket quoats. They've been delaying mandatory anti-theft car system for years until recently. This is small town road apples talking. I'm sure mirrored everywhere. I've never considered working against society until arrestedfor no reason.
"and whether we like it or not if someone commits a crime worthy of prison we should have a space for that."
I was arrested for no reason and about $10000 of CPC administrative costs were the reward for the penal and justice and police system. While in the 50 there were 5 weapons (likely toys) radio calls the cruiser was not responding to.
"I too fail to see the logic in putting more convicts in the same place."
If branded an enemy of society, why shouldn't someone arrested work against society when one's government believe's this thread's circular reasoning. Why shouldn't I go Osama?
If our Canadian violent crime rates are going down, why are our incarceration rates going up? The only reason I can think of is Canadian establishment wants to make poor people like me the enemy? Want me to fight back? There was a 2% chance I would've died in prison, sleep deprived and withdrawing from cut herb. I finally quit decade of binge drinking I doubt I ever would've started if I'd've read a book earlier that reefer doesn't mess with your mind.
ReplyDeleteI sure I could declassify most of Homeland Securities future counter-bioterror blueprint. You keep picking a fight with me you rich people will fucking get it for every wrongfully raped and beating poor person you are responsible for afflicting. Doesn't matter if your CPC judges say rape and beatings are legal is still wrong.
Bible says stand of for the poor and oppressed: you really think got likes your politics?! Imprisoned beaten and killed Jesus? CPC would replay the execution if not for Duceppe and Danny.
Where repeat violent rates are going up is Aboriginal Prairie cities. Probably same thing as Muslim riots in France: poverty, and add booze.
ReplyDeleteWhy not tax beer more in these cities? A person in -40C winter should never have to choose an $80000/yr prison bed/floor and a $258 wlefare rent stipend. If I was given the wrongful $10000 in rich people administrative costs my pointless incerceration fed, I'd by financially set for life. Instead: I've never thought of working against CPC society in my dark dry moment until branded the enemy.
If you build prisons where violence increases, you must first increase antipoverty and child-youth activity funding, and create jobs (like don't spend months fighting Keynesian stimulus, make it better instead). Harper is spending his stimulus in CPC ridings, these are the opposite of at risk for violence ridings. When a CPC former MP loses his job, he does coke and recovers; is financial set for life if chose. When a poor person who uses psychotropic effect (THC isn't addictive) drugs to cope, you get some robberies.
Double-double CPC standard.
Don't hold back Phillip tell us how you really feel.
ReplyDeleteDon't hold back Phillip tell us how you really feel.
ReplyDeleteI feel the Dec/05 RCMP shattered my sanity. I feel all I wanted was $800 in welfare to brainstorm a small biz (would've won it if CPC didn't cancel best-ranked-Crown Court Challenges programme and replace it with debt funded lesser Asper "donation") and Harper is building a $80000/yr bed for me instead. I've been imprisoned and mildly beaten for weed and watched my old dealer's life ruined by CPC supporters.
ReplyDeleteI feel Iraqi insurgents and a BC hero should be using chemical engineering to attack the fragile seals of oil pipelines rather than bombs which are difficult dangerous and traceable to buyer for the most part.
Want me to go on Austin? Instead of my other current research I'll get specific about the pipelines if you want; hoping RCMP is reading an considers this arrestable.
I have sophisticated bioterror blueprints (brainstormed when no weed) and some other stuff in mind to I usually keep to myself.
ReplyDeleteReally want to play poker or what? I can be specific with the oil pipeline chemistry in about 200 hours or so. Just talking about bioterror may permanent erode anyone's trust in me to stop it but a country that spends dollars on a quota of poor people beatings and rapes doesn't deserve unbioterror, does it?
You don't understand Austin and Morton's work buddies, CPC tried to assassinate me already with this prison economy bullshit. It is personal.
ReplyDeleteNo reason not to let all prisoners who aren't attacking eachother (unless is mutual and then set up a prize fight as in free world) get the *cheap* minimum security setting. If must assault and kill then no reason not for a fenced off setting, cheap foreclosed homes with cameras and guards around a fence probably half the price of supermaxes. Better yet save money until better monitoring tech happens and let people live free to taxpayer on the outside. That supermax budget could go to a 2015 remote alcohol sensor wrist watch that someone who went on a booze fueled rage is forced to blow into in return for probation/freedom.
ReplyDeleteNothing stops this but the hatred of CPCers for all the people Jesus (who is an Islamic prophet, and Buddhists would feel the same) loved.
If Neocons get mid 21st century tech they will enslave everyone else.
Ironically you need $$ to be a part of stopping bioterror but you can promote it for free. Think about that, you need a few thousand dollars/yr to help stop bioterror if National Security or Biotech isn't your career. That is a welfare stipend or the savings from a livable ($11/hr?) wage.
Prisons should be about segragating violent inmates from society and then from eachother in the cheapest most humane way possible. Neocons (including CPC but not PCs) are sick sadistic mofus who must never be allowed to achieve 1984 Orwellian technologies at all costs.
...figure since I already killed the thread about whether replaying the USA's highest-on-Earth Supermax industry incarceration rate is good (I assume the prisons don't have windows and someone I met said they feed you half an orange for breakfast).
ReplyDeleteWe've exported the prison economy to Afghanistan I read in paper. Where our prisoners network and learn how to steal a car they network and learn how to build IEDs in prison. IDK if there are improvements to this behaviour but I know but not even trying, buy paying extra taxpayer dollars for beatings and risen mental illness, this policy is helping to kill Canadian Soldiers in Afghanistan. If we fix our prison we can export the results as foreign aid, as per our reputation.
o.k. phillip seek help immediately
ReplyDeleteCosts $120/hr. I'd welcome the chance to uncover the psychiatrist's repressed chilhood abuse after he declares me sane 5 minutes in, if someone else pays (isn't funded like a $80000/yr supercondo).
ReplyDeleteI said "think about that", for a reason. Bioterror might be nothing. It may happen in 2030s and we may get UV OLED wallpaper or consumer negative air pressure tents or good textile masks in 2020s. But there are 50 such sci-fi technologies/techniques between now and 2200. We may really need an Orwellian State on some levels and you can't have people with such hate commanding them.
One example, you may get a Manchurian Candidate drug that really would justify the Prison Economy. You need a social net, not prisons, to capture as many potential coordination points as possible. You need good foreign aid like I said, to capture as many minds in strucuturing society.
Prisons as safety nets and just trusting banks insurance and oil sands to safeguard everything...suicidal.
The Americans didn't have anyone to learn from when they enacted Prison Economy, they just started arresting Blacks (poor more than racism I hope) and realized their powerful friends could benefit by doing it more. We have their experience as a reference and are replaying it still, albeit at a minority gov snail pace.
We have voted to pay extra to commit Human Rights abuses against people. It would be a win win for society not to make so many people mentally ill, the only losers are those you gain pleasure at Human Rights abuses.
This thread is about whether we should pay extra to inflict legal human rights abuses.
Last Post!!!
ReplyDelete