This story from Saskatchewan is troubling.
First Nations are over represented by a factor of eight in Canadian prisons.
Even assuming that there is no systemic bias in the system and aboriginal Canadians are treated exactly like all other Canadians there is a real problem; why are there so many aboriginals in trouble with the law? And why are we just sending them to jail? Is there any basis to think that will lower crime in the future or rehabilitate the offender?
The Supreme Court of Canada (and Parliament to a degree) tried to deal with the issue by suggesting alternatives to incarceration for First Nations -- the Gladue courts -- but these have obviously failed.
Now before I get more comments about being soft on crime let me ask this:
"If such a high rate of incarceration of First Nations hasn't worked before, do we have any reason to believe more prison will work better in the future?".
Someone said madness can be seen in doing the same thing over and over again but expecting a different result.
Studies (see earlier posts) show that sending people to jail (at least our jails as they are now) increases the likelihood of re offending -- rehabilitation is not succeeding. In their current form our prisons are more a training ground for crime than a way out.
Putting aboriginals (and blacks, south asians and even whites) in jail doesn't work. Let's realize we need to deal with crime from an evidence based approach and not a 'gut feeling'.
REGINA — New data released by Statistics Canada shows that the province has the second highest incarceration rate of aboriginal people.
According to the data, aboriginal adults make up 11 per cent of the total population in Saskatchewan, but represented 81 per cent of all adults sentenced to custody.
Compared to the national average in 2007 and 2008, aboriginal adults accounted for 22 per cent of admissions to sentenced custody despite comprising only 3 per cent of the Canadian population.
http://www.leaderpost.com/story_print.html?id=1813833&sponsor=
57 comments:
At least the Indians aren't Muslim terrorist wife killers! Hahaha!!!
At least the Indians aren't Muslim terrorist wife killers! Hahaha!!!
At least the Indians aren't Muslim terrorist wife killers! Hahaha!!!
[Part 1]
"Let's realize we need to deal with crime from an evidence based approach and not a 'gut feeling'."
Excellent idea. In 1971, the Attorney General of Canada, a member of the Liberal Party of Canada, then in government, announced in the House of Commons that "we have decided from now on to stress the rehabilitation of individuals rather than the protection of society" [see Hansard, October 7, 1971]. And what did that focus on rehabilitation of individuals result in? The violent crime rate in 1971 was 492 per 100,000. In the nearly forty years following 1971, we saw the violent crime rate explode, to a high of 1,084 in 1992, followed by a "reduction" to 943 in 2005 (see page 16 of this StatsCan report - http://bit.ly/CZiH8) (the violent crime rate is now higher (1,326), but this is because StatsCan has revised its measurement of the violent crime rate). Roughly 40 years of implementation of the exact policies which you propose (ie reducing incarceration, focusing on rehabilitation and diversion), have resulted in a violent crime rate which is more than double what it was before the implementation of the policies you advocate. So, indeed, "someone said madness can be seen in doing the same thing over and over again but expecting a different result."
"Studies (see earlier posts) show that sending people to jail (at least our jails as they are now) increases the likelihood of re offending -- rehabilitation is not succeeding. In their current form our prisons are more a training ground for crime than a way out."
Could you please point out which studies in which earlier posts? Much appreciated. In any event, it always amuses me when people express surprise that criminals commit crime - and that when you group a bunch of criminals together (like, say, in jail) they don't walk out ruminating on Kant, but instead, as criminals, do what criminals do - ie, commit crime. You've got your causation mixed up - it is not jail that causes people to commit crime, it is people being criminals that causes them to go to jail; and then, when they get out, they tend to commit other crimes. Not because of jail, but because they are criminals.
[Part 2]
The Supreme Court of Canada (and Parliament to a degree) tried to deal with the issue by suggesting alternatives to incarceration for First Nations -- the Gladue courts -- but these have obviously failed."
You state that, and then follow up with this:
"If such a high rate of incarceration of First Nations hasn't worked before, do we have any reason to believe more prison will work better in the future?".
But as you've just pointed out, "we" aren't incarcerating First Nations at the same rate as we once were. We're incarcerating them less, as a result of systemic efforts to reduce their incarceration rates. The proper form of your question therefore is not "do we have any reason to believe more prison will work better in the future", but "we tried incarcerating them, and that didn't work; we tried not incarcerating them, and that didn't work; so, now what?". But this entire discussion is focused in entirely the wrong place: aboriginal communities are deeply damaged for a variety of historical and structural reasons; that's why they suffer from such high crime and incarceration rates. Fix the communities and you will likely address the crime and incarceration issues - attempting to "solve" the problem by calibrating how many people are sent to jail is a fool's errand.
What I remain most troubled by in your various posts about crime and sentencing, however, is revealed in this line:
"Is there any basis to think [custodial punishment] will lower crime in the future or rehabilitate the offender?"
You seem consistently to posit that there is only one (or at most two) purposes to the regime of criminal sentencing: deterrence or rehabilitation (presumably with an eye towards reducing crime, and thus being functionally deterrent). But any mature theory of criminal justice recognizes that these are only two among many different purposes of punishment. Section 718 of the Criminal Code alone identifies the following purposes: encouragement of respect for the law; maintenance of an orderly society; denunciation; deterrence; incapacitation; rehabilitation; reparation; promotion of responsibility among offenders. By artificially limiting your focus to deterrence and rehabilitation, you end up with a radically impoverished argument.
Bob Tarantino hit it right on the know.
The Liberals are responsible for the violent crime in this country and the sick sentences that corrupt liberal judges gives serial criminals.
Bob is right, asking why criminals commit crime is like asking why people brush their teeth.
Bob Tarantino is right.
But you know what scares me more.
People like James Morton are teaching this theory to law students which are our future judges and lawyers.
This is not right.
James is telling lies to justify his liberal soft on crime theory that has never worked and never will seeing how the violent crime rate has exploded ever since the liberal started caring about criminals and forgetting about victims.
James needs to understand he needs to teach the whole law, not his version of it.
This is scary stuff coming from Mr Morton seeing hoe he is a professor and a big wig in the lawyer world.
This is a perfect example of a professor "brainwashing" his students.
Something needs to be done about this.
Actually, I don't teach any policy at Law School -- I a known for teaching very straight law. But I am sure my views leak in, that's true no doubt. Obviously I don't think my views are lies but everyone's views colour their thinking and comments... .
Prison shouldn't be about rehabilitation. It should be about revenge.
You say...
"If such a high rate of incarceration of First Nations hasn't worked before, do we have any reason to believe more prison will work better in the future?".
I agree that something should be done. I would not, however, begin with the justice system. That's a sympton, not a cause. It's like saying there are too many cancer patients, so we're going to cut back on chemotherapy.
I assume most victims of Indian offenders are themselves Indian. Less incarceration might just create more victims.
Instead let's begin with the school system and the family.
"First Nations are over represented by a factor of eight in Canadian prisons."
And men are over represented by a factor of FIFTY in the federal system, and a factor of twenty in Ontario.
Both gender and race are prohibited grounds for discrimination; if men are getting locked up at a rate FIFTY times higher than the rest of the population we need to gender normalize the laws and also affirm what is obvious: women are, effectively, above the law in Canada.
Don't "yeah, but" me, Professor Morton, this is a hideous injustice and it's time for you to speak up for men as you are here for Indians (that's what they call themselves, only PC chilled white people say "aboriginals"). Don't pick and choose politically correct causes, speak out against injustice wherever you see it.
Perhaps if Canada stopped treating aboriginals (Indians) like victimized children, they would begin to develop as normal human beings.
The Indian population has doubled in my life time so far. Tax-payers made to feel guilty about the condition of the poor hapless native are forking out billions for a government agency that does NOTHING to help naives.
The amount of 'Indian money,' if distributed equally among Indians, would have them all enjoying a lush life-long retirement. Until their numbers quadruple over the next century. How much will it cost then? Trillions?
This is clearly wrong. Evey man needs to feel some pride and feel useful, and challenged.
The best thing is to assimilate the entire native population into the mainstream and let them compete for a life like the rest of us. If they prefer crime, then they prefer jail.
Uneducated, unskilled immigrants without our language, have been coming to Canada for decades and they have made a good lives here and prospered.
Are you going to tell me that Indians are somehow sub-humans who cannot possibly survive without the government teat?
That would be quite an insult to Native people. It is enough that we insult them by treating like wards of the state now.
Bob T has laid it out well regarding the folly of Liberal attitudes regarding the jailing of criminals.
A fact that is seldom mentioned in the wailing over rates of aboriginal incarceration is that the majority of aboriginal crime, especially violent crime, is committed against other aboriginals.
The two-tier justice system now in place has resulted in a two-tier victim class, where a crime committed against an aboriginal tends to be prosecuted less severely than one against a white or other minority.
The unintended consequences of social engineering, eh?
"Putting aboriginals (and blacks, south asians and even whites) in jail doesn't work."
So Morton,
You do realize that for every crime there is a victim? Do you believe in the concept of justice? Do you think that when people are assaulted, raped, burgled, or murdered, that the perpetrators should not be penalized?
You're nuts.
Kate makes an excellent point.
Most victims of Aboriginal crime are Aboriginal.
Mr. Morton, have you done much reserach on the levels of child sexual abuse for example? How do you think an 8 year old who has been marred for life by such a descipicable act feels when the perpetrator does not get locked up? How does this further Aboriginal rights and anti-racist attitudes/policy?
Aboriginal Canadians need politicans with the courage to take on the racist Indian Act and their lack of human rights in this country. They are not considered individuals by our Charter for one.
It's certainly unfortunate that Kate's brigade is ruining a civilized and informative debate between yourself and Tarantino.
A few questions for Tarantino:
1) Do you think that our justice system has really geared itself towards rehabilitation since 1971?
2) Are there any other factors that might affect the crime rate other than whether the government focuses on rehabilitation or punishment?
3) Do you think that people who commit crimes cannot reform?
Rob,
I suppose the snearing condescension in your first sentence is "civilized". Nice.
1) yes, as much as it can be with a government run bureacracy. Could more resources be thrown at it, yes, but someone has to pay for this.
2)Yes-lack of moral values, culture of victimization (blaming others for predicament), lack of teaching personal responsibilty in upbringing, culture that despises education, culture based racial identity (skin color and ancestral history trump other values), FAS, lack of parenting, just a few.
3) High majority (90% +) of people who commit crimes do not reform due to outside influences. Generally, after the age of 4 years old, people who have learned that aggression and violence are acceptable, cannot be reformed. Crucial age is 2-4, after that, they are a lost cause.
Hi James,
Kate has "graciously" linked this page to one of her recent blogposts at SDA.
If harsher sentences and putting people in jail does not work, why does the left want to do exactly that with anything labeled a 'hate' crime?
An inconvenient double standard there, no?
Bob Tarantino:
If you don't have a blog you ought to. Brilliantly said !!!
What a blessing to get some logical though, not the emotive pap dished out constantly by liberal “reformers“. As well your judgment is impeccable. How novel ! Criminals are law breakers because they are unlawful. So simple, so profound. Most things are I find.
Best post I've read in a while.
Keep on riding!!!
JMO
The problem is the assumption that someone can be rehabilitated. By the time someone is in their mid to late teens, it is highly unlikely that you can break them of criminal behaviour and tendencies. But, alas, liberals always have to try, because at least trying is doing something. As if effort were somehow equal to achievement.
The simple solution is for those that are, lock em up. Keep them there. Society will be safer. To try and reduce the number in the future, solid, results based education, and not the "everybody is equal" crap that the liberal bias in education has led to. Return to basics, and focus on providing streams of learning that work. Forget the "ribbon for everyone that showed up because everyone is a WINNER" nonsense.
Hey Bob:
Revnant Dream is right you should have a blog.
I have a great idea for a name: "Let it Bleed" run it by your wife and see if she will give you permission.
Can people reform? Yes but...as has been mentioned it doesn't happen that often. The question you need to ask is: why should they reform? Think of the old saw, "crime doesn't pay". Can you honestly say it's true?
In large subcultures, public disapproval is no deterrent. With the rise of hip-hop culture, evenglorification of criminality is going mainstream.
Once peer pressure is gone, the main deterrent is the punishment, itself. But if we make the punishment "proportionate" to the crime for the one crime that was caught and nonexistent for the ten that were not, crime becomes a rational choice.
The usual rejoinder is that people, especially criminals are not rational. True, some won't respond but some will; others will over-react and the friends, children and neighbors will learn the appropriate lessons. Individuals don't respond rationally but communities do.
-Pete E
Wow. I can't predict what posts will get comments. Can people be reformed or rehabilitate? Yes of course they can. But not, or not often anyway, in current Canadian prisons. Does a threat of prison deter crime? No -- an increased rate of clearing cases does (so more police makes some sense) but prison itself does not act as a real deterent. Now, separation from society does work to a degree and if we are content to send people to jail forever, or pretty close, prison can have an impact on crime. Most crimes are committed by criminals -- that's sounds silly but it means repeat offenders are a real problem. I say we need to reform our prisons to make them places of quiet and re education. I suppose that will be seen as soft on crime -- I see it as making prison work. As for native offenders, whatever the reason, the wildly excessive rate of aboriginal incarceration means something and it should not be ignored (as the excessive rate of male incarceration). Anyway, even to those who don't like my musings, thank you for writing!!!
"Can people be reformed or rehabilitate? Yes of course they can. But not, or not often anyway, in current Canadian prisons."
This is where Morton is "deadly" wrong.
He is saying that criminals can be reformed but not in "Canadian" jails.
What jails are he taking about?
Seriously?
The USA, Mexico, Russia, France, China.
This is a joke right?
No joke. And I doubt those other jails can reform either. But a prison where the inmate is not subject to inmate peer pressure, and is exposed to practical skills while being taught (or at least shown) morally correct behaviour might work. That was the idea behind the Pennsylvania system and it was effective in reforming criminals, especially when connected to supervision after release. The trouble is cost. But if the money is to be spent this is the effective way.
"But a prison where the inmate is not subject to inmate peer pressure, and is exposed to practical skills while being taught (or at least shown) morally correct behaviour might work."
This is scary stuff.
He "imagines" a prison that he knows will never be built because the idea itslef is absurd.
If he can find a jail in the world where there is no "inmate peer pressure" then I'll vote Liberal in the next election.
This is how people in the lawyer field view the system.
Something that can only be imagined is now being sold as a cure to the violent crime rate in Canada?
Mr. Morton: You and others seem to think that rehabilitation is something that we do to someone. I assure you as someone working in the field that it is not. Rehabilitation or reform is something that someone does for himself. In every instance where I have seen someone transform into a productive member of society, it is because they got this point and applied it to themselves, regardless of whether they were incarcerated or not. Incarceration and rehabilitation are not inversely proportional.
"Does a threat of prison deter crime? No "
This is breathtakingly false. I assure you that without the threat of incarceration the rates for rape, murder, assault, and burglary would be much, much higher.
I simply cannot believe I just read that. And to think you are a law professor.
Deterrence is only part of the equation; meaningful consequences - punishment - would be the other part.
Professor Morton, what would be an appropriate sentence for someone who brutally raped one of your loved ones?
This isn't a rhetorical question,
I want to see a number. Second question: murder. What would be an appropriate sentence for someone who murdered one of your loved ones?
I'd like an answer, please. As it stands now you are on record as believing that a sentence of zero days would be appropriate; could you please make it official and state that clearly and unambiguously? That you oppose a prison sentence for the rape and or murder of one of your loved ones?
I hope you don't have children.
It's astounding that punishment doesn't enter into the equation.
Nobody locks their car doors in Saudi Arabia - because the punishment is the severing of one's hand from one's body. Punishment works, it is utter madness to suggest otherwise. To call your views Satanic defames Lucifer.
Incarceration doesn't work? OF COURSE IT DOES - it's called keeping the bloody bastards off the streets, even if it is only for the pitifully paltry amount of time given to even the most serious offenders in this spineless country. did our Government actually say that protecting innocent people from the depredations of these scum is not a priority any more? That explains a lot - and will be shred via email with everyone I know. Thanks for that post Bob Tarantino.
Look at all those brave silly little anons posting here. Are they the same person? Who knows - because giving themselves a consistent identity is something they are not brave enough to do.
As for this silly little anon:
"I assure you that without the threat of incarceration the rates for rape, murder, assault, and burglary would be much, much higher."
somehow I do not feel "assured" by your ignorance. Do you think that a rapist sits down and calculates how much time he is going to serve for an offence before he decides whether to commit it? Because if you do, you might want to educate yourself so you can express informed opinions rather than utter nonsense.
To the rest of you, here is the thing:
Prisons will not rehabilitate people. Longer prison sentences will not protect society since it has been shown, over and over again, that tough on crime policies do not result in a decreased crime rate.
There are all kinds of factors that influence crime. The systemic discrimination extended to our Aboriginal people is indeed responsible for the situation they find themselves in now. That is not fixed by simply telling them to fix themselves.
The higher number of Aboriginals in our prisons is due only minimally to a discriminatory legal system. The bigger factors are the poverty and the culture of defeat - alcohol and drug abuse, violence etc. The education system available on reserves is abysmal. I know of several families who send their children to Edmonton in order for their children to receive a better education. The probem is that when they get here they experience discrimination from their peers - something they do not experience on the reserve. We all have to take some responsibility for this.
The real problem with our prison system is that it is expensive, and we spend so much money reacting to crime that we do not have enough left for proactive programs.
The legal system does not prevent crime - it punishes crime. Other systems, in particular education, health and social welfare systems are where we need to concentrate our efforts.
Which is not to say we should get rid of prisons, but right now the balance is tipped towards punishment and it needs to go the other way.
The exception being the Youth Criminal Justice Act which has measures built into the system that works towards rehabilitation. I suggest this is because it draws on other systems, such as the education and social welfare systems.
Anyone wondering why modern Canadian women have earned a reputation as ill mannered ill tempered bilious harridans need not look any further than Gayle, who has been spewing insults across the blogosphere for quite some time now.
Let's take a closer look at what passes for intelligent, rational, civilized debate among today's Canadian female cohort:
"Look at all those brave silly little anons posting here. Are they the same person? Who knows - because giving themselves a consistent identity is something they are not brave enough to do.
As for this silly little anon...
somehow I do not feel "assured" by your ignorance...you might want to educate yourself so you can express informed opinions rather than utter nonsense."
Gayle: making Canadian women look bad since 2007. Glad she's on your side, Professor Morton.
Way to deal with those arguments silly little anon.
When all you have is a personal attack, you might want to go back and reconsider your position.
But it is cute the way you complain about how uncivilized it is to insult people by, you know, insulting me.
While you are informing yourself, you might want to look up the term "hypocrite". In the meantime, I look forward to the day when you are able to deal with my substantive points.
Or did you think your silly little post would actually hide the fact that your arguments have been successfully challenged???
Keep talking, Gayle, you are the best argument there is against employment equity and the Liberal Party of Canada.
You should be proud to have people like Gayle on your side, Professor Morton. Just kidding, it's tantamount to an admission that your side is wrong. Wrong, and ugly, and immature, and hostile, and not at all intelligent.
Oh look. Another post where silly little anon engages personal attacks in a weak attempt to disguise the fact he cannot address the arguments.
You are still not fooling anyone.
I should be noted first off that Canada has a legal system, not unfortunately, a justice system.
"silly little anon"
Keep talking, Gayle. Blurting bulk stupidity and spewing insults does not equate to defeating my narrative, it still stands.
To call you and Morton soft on crime is far too kind; you both actively collude with criminals to help them to rape, to assault, to steal, and to murder, with near impunity. You are complicit, you are a partner in their crimes.
The police and legal system protect criminals from outraged citizens, who vastly outnumber you and your criminal partners, not the other way around. We'd make short work of the criminals very quickly absent the state's monopoly on violence and the criminals' defenders and partners in the legal system.
In case it wasn't clear enough: I plainly accuse Gayle and Morton of actively co-operating and colluding with criminals to allow them to rape, to steal, and to murder with relative impunity.
Saying they are soft on crime is inaccurate and too kind - they are partners in crime with criminals and every bit as responsible, perhaps - probably - even more so, for the pain and anguish Canadian victims of crime feel every day.
The number of hardcore criminals is, thankfully, relatively small; it is their partners such as Gayle and Morton who are unfortunately more numerous and pose a far greater threat to Canadians - without their co-operation and protection, crime would be a small fraction of what it is today.
It is the pro-crime cheerleaders and enablers such as Morton and Gayle who are most responsible for Canada's unacceptably high crime rate - criminals are merely taking advantage of the broad boundaries in which they are allowed to operate, thanks to Gayle and Morton and their kind.
Snort.
You have yet to present anything but accusations and insults.
Do you STILL think such behavior disguises the fact that you are clearly uninformed?
Because it doesn't.
Nice try though.
"Snort...you are clearly uninformed"
Keep talking, Gayle, you are the most splendid argument one can make against Employment Equity, feminism, and the Liberal Party of Canada.
Please, by all means continue showing the world the true ugly face of Liberal feminists.
Professor Morton: I at least give you credit for withstanding my narrative; most bloggers would have zapped my comments by now. There is no virtue in moderation in the pursuit of justice and I regret but do not apologize that such strong language is necessary to convey what I know about the matter.
Perhaps if, in the future, you carry the torch of the thousands of men incarcerated (over 50% of whom haven't even been convicted of a crime but are on remand, as you well know, the highest rate in the entire world) in no small part because of their gender while women walk free from committing crimes of similar magnitude, we will have a more pleasant discussion. Good day.
Oh look - big words,several posts, and no argument. Not one substantive point
Shocking, Truly shocking.
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