Jeff Jedras in Full Comment:
You see, I support Senate reform. I'm just not sure Stephen Harper does. Oh, sure, he likes it as an issue. It plays well with his base to rail against the evil, unelected Senate. And the Senate is a handy bogeyman for him to blame his assorted inadequacies and short-comings on. Par example, after refusing Liberal offers to fast-track the bulk of his crime legislation, he finally gets it though the House. Then , after the Senate has it for less than a week, he accuses them of obstructionism. When legislation dies on the order paper because he prorogues parliament to avoid defeat, he blames the Senate. When the Senate wants to actually do its job of sober second though and not rubber-stamp bills in a day, well, you get the idea.
http://www.nationalpost.com/m/blog.html?b=fullcomment&e=jeff-jedras-if-harper-really-wanted-to-reform-the-senate-he-would&s=Home
22 comments:
Jeff's fears, legitimate though they might be, are fears not facts. The US reformed their Senate in a similar fashion, incrementally and without constitutional wrangling. We can elect Senators without opening the constitution, all it takes is for provinces to hold elections and for PMs to appoint them. We can set term limits by act of Parliament. All that is left is equal representation, whether that is equal by province or equal by population, I am open to discussion, but it seems to me that incrementalism on the first two will make the third, which does need constitutional reform, easier. That approach is being blocked by Liberals, and the solution Jeff offers, even he admits, is almost suicidal. Until Quebec grows up and stops demanding special treatment, and until the maritime provinces realize their time as powers in confederation is up, there is no way we can alter our constitution. That seems to suit too many Liberals just fine. And it gives Jeff a fig leaf to hide the hypocrisy of his argument, that patronage always has been and likely always will be the bread and butter of the Liberal way.
Why would it make it easier?
Because it would be a smaller change, a change that would be supported by successfully implemented reforms, and would have broad and hopefully vocal support because of the success of previous reforms. Once people get a taste of successful reform they will hopefully be more motivated than if they are presented with one big, unknown, potentially disastrous package.
Either do away with the Senate or vote members in and give them some legitimate say in what goes on in the house. As the Senate operates at the moment it is just a drain on public money. When the Senate passes bills, it is only a formality anyway. We also need to change the amount of time a Prime Minister serves. She/he sound only have to five year terms....then kaput!!
that should read two five year terms.
Well that is very hopeful and optimistic of you Rat. The problem is that the true reform requires a constitutional amendment, and opening in the constitution has its own problems. There is no way the provinces who have to give something up to address the imbalance in the senate are not going to demand some contitutional reforms of their own.
There is widespread acceptance that senate reform is desireable. There is no consensus on how that should happen. That consensus is not going to magically appear just because of term limits and elections (and, in case you did not know, there are divergent opinions on whether elections are constitutional).
Gayle, there are divergent opinions on whether Senate elections are enforceable, not on whether they are constitutional, unless you are implying Bert Brown is an illegitimate Senator? The US senate used to be made up of persons appointed by the state governor but some states began electing their senators and THEN the governor appointed them, there was no way to stop a governor ignoring the elections other than public opinion reflected in future elections. Certainly some future PM could choose to ignore the provinces' elections but one would hope that would only happen once, if you know what I mean. There is nothing at all unconstitutional about a PM following the will of the electorate.
Further, there is something wrong with our country when we have to play quid pro quo in order to rectify an extreme injustice. Why should we Westerners have to pay off Quebec, New Brunswick, Nova Scotia, and that flyspeck PEI just to get democratic fairness? BC has 4.4 million people and 6 senators, while PEI has 140,000 and 4 senators!??? If you want to play realpolitik and pay these people off in order to get fairness, well, that reason 147 I'm not a Liberal and why I have no respect for Trudeau's piece of asswipe we call a "constitution". Sorry if that's harsh but that's the depth of sentiment out here in redneck country.
"Further, there is something wrong with our country when we have to play quid pro quo in order to rectify an extreme injustice."
Maybe, but that is the way it is. Why else would Harper be avoiding a constitutional amendment?
Not sure why you think the liberals have anything to do with that.
The problem with Harper's Senate proposal is that he is passing the buck to the provinces. He knows that they won't take his bait on his Senate reform proposal. He just has to sit on his hands and tell his loyal supporters that he can't do anything.
Harper has no intention of initiating negotiations with the provinces to reform the Senate.
I did state in my blogpost that Ontario could take Harper's bait and provide for the election of up to 24 senators en-masse and elected under an At-Large voting system. Imagine up to 24 provincial Liberals being elected for Harper's eight year term. Do you think Harper would actually recommend the appointment of any of them to the governor-general? I'm sure he would delay and then decry that the At-Large voting system is unfair.
http://skinnydips.blogspot.com
"Not sure why you think the liberals have anything to do with that."
I don't know, maybe it's because Trudeau, a Liberal as I'm sure you know, brought in a new constitution without a referendum and without even the decency of an election. I was youngish then but I don't remember Trudeau campaigning on a new constitution. He enshrined the amending formula, he left out property rights, he left the senate as it was, he basically said 'screw you' to the West and that's why we can't change the constitution without the consent of a bunch of tired minnows and a giant baby. That's why I blame the Liberals.
Given that the Liberals and Conservatives have, between them, constituted an absolute majority since forever, and Senate reform has not happened, it seems clear that the two major parties in parliament do not support Senate reform, and assertions that they do support Senate reform (which we read on a regular basis, such as in this post) are fabrications.
Sorry Rat, but you cannot blame Trudeau alone. He was joined by 9 provinces, and not all those provinces had liberal governments. Sure, he tried to do it unilaterally, but the SCC would not let him.
I also wanted to respond to this:
"there are divergent opinions on whether Senate elections are enforceable, not on whether they are constitutional,"
by linking to this:
http://www.cba.org/CBA/submissions/pdf/08-23-eng.pdf
http://www2.parl.gc.ca/HousePublications/Publication.aspx?DocId=3459539&Language=E&Mode=1&Parl=39&Ses=2
Here is some stuff on the Constitution Act:
http://www.thecanadianencyclopedia.com/index.cfm?PgNm=TCE&Params=A1SEC818742
The Debate Over an Amending Formula
The controversy in the 1980s pitted Ottawa and 2 provincial allies, Ontario and New Brunswick, against the other 8 provinces. Central to the debate was whether, by convention, provincial consent was required before an amendment could be obtained from Britain affecting provincial rights, privileges or powers. In September 1981 the Supreme Court held that although Ottawa had the legal power to present a joint address of the Senate and House of Commons to Westminster seeking an amendment, it was improper, by convention, to do so without a "consensus" (undefined, but at least a clear majority) of the provinces.
Since neither Ottawa nor the dissenting provinces had won outright, compromise was essential, and all parties except Québec reached agreement on 5 November 1981. Spokesmen for Québec argued that according to the "duality" principle the concurrence of both English- and French-speaking Canada was required for basic constitutional change, and that the absence of one "national" will constituted a veto.
All the other parties denied the existence of the "duality" principle in the form asserted by Québec. Left unresolved for future consideration were such knotty problems as constitutional revision of the division of powers and institutional reform of the Supreme Court, the Senate and the Crown.
http://www.stonepool.com/md/boards/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=101851&p=174467
http://www.cocurry.com/forum/posting.php?mode=reply&f=11&t=5696
http://213.198.110.171/la-traversee/forum/viewtopic.php?p=60323
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